Incoherent rambling about the “need” for supposed trainees and the alternative
August 7, 2020
A certain someone has taken it upon himself to lampoon certain types of solicitations issued by a lab head for postdocs and occasionally for graduate students, when they appear on Twitter. The triggering material included in such solicitations are terms such as “independent”, “energetic”, “brilliant”, “highly motivated”, “creative” and the like. Sometimes the trigger for this certain someone is merely a comment that the applicant should be experienced in some particular scientific technique. Seemingly inoffensive and very traditional, right? I mean, every lab head wants the lab to be as successful as possible and that means that they want good rather than bad employees.
Employees.
Whoops. But we’re talking about trainees, right? Graduate students and postdoctoral trainees.
They are supposed to be getting something from the lab, not the other way around. Correct? So this over emphasis on how the PI only wants to hire the most talented, rather than the most needy, individuals pulls back the curtain to reveal the seamy truth.
“Trainees” in biomedical science are in large part the workforce. Which is obtained for less money due to the “training” misdirection.
“Need”.
This is one that set me off recently, thanks to our beloved aforementioned trollerpants. Chit chat amongst the Professor class that they “need” a postdoc now. Or general announcements that they will be soon looking to “hire a graduate student” in their new appointment, whee! but…”need”.
And of course coupling this to the above focus on the very best, most motivated, well trained, energetic self-starting individuals?
The notion of actually competing for the best of the available postdocs raises an ugly head.
You will be entirely unsurprised that I couple all of this to my views on labor in academic research labs and, in particular, the way we go along deluding ourselves that we are not part of any sort of labor market. I couple this to my thinking about ways to make academic careers slightly less hellish on the factors which are usually rubbing points.
Thinking more about the labor aspects of what is now academic “training” lets us think, I believe, more creatively about making things better for all of us.
No, it does not magically invent more Professor jobs. It does not restore State level commitment of funds to public Universities and thereby relieve the pressure for extramural funds. It does not make the NIH budget double overnight and therefore reduce pressure for the grant seekers.
But creating stable, long term job categories for those who are now some thin rebranding of “postdoc” could advance us. Creating stable career jobs to do the pure work part of the graduate student job could advance us.
Yes, this means we will “train” fewer graduate students and replace that labor with technicians. Who will be more or less expected to journey through their career as a career. Benefits. Increasing salaries with experience and longevity.
It’s gonna cost.
That brings me around to grant review. It always comes back to grant review.
One of the reasons NIH put the modular budget in place is to get reviewers to stop with the ticky tack over costs. Costs that vary all across the country from place to place. Costs that a certain species of reviewer just could not get through their head would vary. Costs that a certain species of reviewer delighted in using to spike a grant because those outrageous cage costs at Big U were higher than they were paying at their LessBig U.
And salary.
A certain species of reviewer is very concerned about salaries paid, if they can just get their beady little eyes on the information. A related species is very concerned about how many individuals are being paid off the grant, if they can just get their eyes on that information.
It is very hard to get their eyes on contributions by graduate students or postdocs who are on a fellowship or Program paid stipend. It is inevitably that they get their eyes on technician salaries when looking at an itemized budget.
I have recently received a grant review comment that clearly I was paying my technical staff too much, coupled with an obviously grudging admission that the person had long experience as a technician.
I have related more than once on these pages that over time I have generally relied more on tech labor than on the “trainee” scam. This, as our second President of the USA John Adams famously remarked about his refusal to use enslaved labor, costs me. It costs my grants and therefore I get less productivity per dollar compared with someone who is willing to fully exploit cut-rate labor under guise of “trainee” job categories. I do not turn my techs over willy-nilly every several years to reset salaries, either. And the way things work in these here United States, people get paid more over time. Those with more experience get paid more than those with less, even if the lesser experienced person could do the same job.
So when my peers who review my grants say that the merit of my proposal is diminished because I make these labor choices in my lab, and suggest that what I should be doing is exploiting the heck out of labor by using less experienced and cheaper techs…..
I get a little shouty. and bloggy.
For every reviewer who is dumb enough to actually write this in a critique, there are ten that are thinking it. They are taking a less positive cant on my proposal as a consequence. And possibly looking for other ways to express their disapproval.
I myself have occasionally fallen into to the “too many staff for the work described” review space. I’ve done it super rarely, so I think I’m probably on solid ground. The only cases I can recall were really, really egregious. But I need to watch myself, as do you. How often are you thinking that a major grant will receive the supplemental help of undergraduate “interns”? grand students or postdocs on “their own” fellowships? How many times have you questioned the role of a staff scientist when surely a postdoc would do?
August 8, 2020 at 6:44 am
This phenomenon is especially acute in computational biology when one compares a six figure software engineer salary to that of postdocs. I faced the same grant critique you did: why aren’t you “using“ cheaper grad students? (https://www.nature.com/news/the-future-of-the-postdoc-1.17253). When I was quoted in that article five years ago I was too shy to say (at the beginning of my career then) that I had naively tried to make my new lab work with all staff scientists, paid roughly 50% more than postdocs. My thinking was that their productivity would make up for the extra cost but I found that’s just not the case (I find the quote that they’d be 3x more productive unrealistic!) So I discovered what you stated so clearly: hiring non-trainees comes at a real cost. Which is fine if it impacts me and my standard of living… it’s less fine if it mean the lab doesn’t get grants renewed and our idealistic environment goes out of business. Now my lab is ~50% staff scientists and I console myself that at least I’m contributing less to the postdocalypse than most, and that our trainees are quite employable. I recognize I’ve only been able to do this due to start up funds that subsidized my experiment. It’s an ethical dilemma whether to exit the system entirely or do what you need to do to have your lab survive while trying to push things on the right direction.
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August 10, 2020 at 9:21 am
I DGAF about tech salaries, but I will pay attention to number of FTEs on a proposal, and whether the budget is “top heavy” – Lots of % coverage for half a dozen faculty (many at the salary cap) but only 1.5 tech/PDF/GS to do all the lab work. On the handful of occasions I’ve explicitly mentioned salary, it’s been when people aren’t paying their post-docs enough (below the NRSA guidelines) or annual cost-of-living increases are not baked in to the budget.
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August 11, 2020 at 1:18 pm
hiring non-trainees comes at a real cost. Which is fine if it impacts me and my standard of living… it’s less fine if it mean the lab doesn’t get grants renewed and our idealistic environment goes out of business.
Exactly. We are in this tragedy of the commons spiral where intense competition merely to *survive* means our fine principles become an existential threat. Nobody wants to crater their lab while riding on a high horse. You will notice in all of my comments on this topic I refer to the fact that I rely “more” on tech labor than most other labs in my subfield. I’m not alone, nor the best, nor exclusive. Merely above average. And there are reasons having to do with accident, more than intent, that brought me to this place / understanding / bargain.
I’m contributing less to the postdocalypse than most, and that our trainees are quite employable
Yes to the first, no to the second. The moment we start talking about the future benefits of undercompensated labor, we go down a bad path.
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August 11, 2020 at 3:07 pm
I will pay attention to number of FTEs on a proposal, and whether the budget is “top heavy” – Lots of % coverage for half a dozen faculty (many at the salary cap) but only 1.5 tech/PDF/GS to do all the lab work.
What do you know about who does what? What does that have to do with the merit and the likely successful conduct of the research? You can’t control this. It’s part of the trust of the research team to get stuff done.
On the handful of occasions I’ve explicitly mentioned salary, it’s been when people aren’t paying their post-docs enough (below the NRSA guidelines)
Cool, cool, good on ya
or annual cost-of-living increases are not baked in to the budget.
Can’t always be “baked in” to the budget but may still be done. NIH rules, for example, allow an escalation that tends to be out of step with known or anticipated salary steps. To meet budget limits in some cases is easier just not to escalate when you know dang well you are going to face increasing salaries. This is the kind of ticky tack interference on the part of over-assuming reviewers that is super annoying and doesn’t really have any clear impact.
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August 11, 2020 at 6:19 pm
> I’m contributing less to the postdocalypse than most, and that our trainees are quite employable
>> Yes to the first, no to the second. The moment we start talking about the future benefits of undercompensated labor, we go down a bad path.
I hear you, I was trying to say that even though I am employing more staff scientists than average, if I was “producing” people with no job prospects after doing their postdoc in my lab, I would close up shop immediately, much less ethical anguish involved.
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August 12, 2020 at 10:48 pm
I’m also raising this issue on postdoc adverts, especially politely suggesting people consider hiring staff scientist instead of PDs. It generally gets ignored. The skill sets people are asking for are incredible.
The only way to address this, to me, seems to be university (and NIH) buy-in. This is because staying in a academic lab long term is not a viable career path because your boss will likely retire mid-career for you, and if you’re not embedded in the institution, there’s just no security at all for that job type. Industry probably won’t take you (e.g. you spent your whole life with flies or worms) and a younger PI won’t want to/can’t shoulder the expense on their own.
You have to:
Tamp down the H1B firehose. If they’re not going to increase the NIH budget, this is the only way to encourage a shift away from trainee labor. Its just supply and demand, and at this point the supply is overwhelmingly coming from overseas.
Cap the time people can be postdocs. Some unis do this at 5, which is good, 3 would be better, you’re not realistically getting “training” after 3 years in a lab. After that they have to be staff of some sort, with normal benefits. Build/expand your staff scientist tier system.
Create funding mechanism(s) for them. This could be done through the university, like mini-endowed chairs, where each department has a senior scientist slots that are funded. The NIH could also divert money from “training” to “retention”, where they expand existing grants (we’ve talked about the NCI staff scientist grants).
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August 14, 2020 at 10:58 am
“jmz4… Tamp down the H1B firehose”
I guess it’s a sign of the times that for any problem, the first step is blaming those ‘from overseas”
There is no H1B firehose. Every single H1B person entering the US is doing it as a result of a long and difficult process and involves an invitation from someone already in the US who has to have the financial means to hire them.
The more important issue is: why are Americans abandoning science? Older ones do not want to pay taxes to support science. Younger ones do not want to study science or work in research. Half the country is happy to ignore science if it excuses them getting a haircut.
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August 15, 2020 at 4:01 pm
“I guess it’s a sign of the times that for any problem, the first step is blaming those ‘from overseas”
-1, I explicitly said the other option is to increase funding directly for staff scientist position. But that requires new money, which DM took off the table for the purposes of this discussion.
-2, It is a fact that, currently, the majority of the postdoc population is foreign. If you’re looking to reduce their numbers, which is necessary to encourage a shift to more expensive, full time workers, then you have to start there.
“There is no H1B firehose. Every single H1B person entering the US is doing it as a result of a long and difficult process and involves an invitation from someone already in the US who has to have the financial means to hire them.”
-Again, I’m not blaming the people coming here or underestimating the difficulty of it. But universities have an unlimited number of H1b visas they can issue. That’s an inelastic supply as long as there are people will to come here to do the work. This is basic economics.
“The more important issue is: why are Americans abandoning science? ”
-There are more American postdocs doing science, per capita, then there ever have been. The problem is the lack of “permanent” jobs has not kept pace with it, a trend exacerbated by the Immigration Act of 1990, which exempted universities.
Also, I have to note, that the US spends quite a bit on research and science. That’s why so many people want to come here to do it.
Science, ideally, should be fully global, meritocratic, and inclusive. But if you aren’t willing to open up the NIH grant application process to the global market, its hypocritical to only do it for the PD job market.
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