A reaction to the racial disparity in NIH grant success rates

September 6, 2011

in which a picture is worth a thousand words….

but you need to go read the post by Hermitage.
Also, here’s a link to the Chronicle bit on the disparity in undergraduate scholarship awards mentioned in the post at The Hermitage.

White students make up 62 percent of full-time students enrolled in four-year colleges but receive 76 percent of institutional merit scholarships; and white students are 40 percent more likely to receive private scholarships than minority students are.

And the OER Rock Talk blog thread on the racial disparity continues…

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33 Responses to “A reaction to the racial disparity in NIH grant success rates”

  1. tioedong Says:

    If whites, who are 80 percent of the population, only have 62 percent of full time students, and only 76 percent of the financial help, then the whites are facing discrimination.
    And an Ethnic whose family is multi cultural and multi racial, I resent the term “white”. My ethnic group faced years of religious and cultural discrimination. My Hispanic sons are “white” because they lack a proper “Hipanic” name, and as Asians my mixed race Asian grandchildren are similarly discriminated against in many colleges.

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  2. Isabel Says:

    I left a comment on the OER blog, can’t wait to see if it makes it through moderation.
    Tioedong, you are correct that *some* whites are facing apparent discrimination, but even more so than you suggest (although I don’t think your 80% figure is correct).
    Infuriatingly most critics are claiming or implying* that those “whites” in science are majority “anglo-saxons” but the reality, which we are unfortunately not allowed to talk about, or make any references to, tells a far different story. Probably only about half fit that description…the other half are considered white but are from a tiny, non-anglo-saxon minority. So talking about “minorities” vs “majority whites” makes no sense in this debate.
    Oh and Drugmonkey, please try to use your words if you have a disagreement with me. Or simply ban me already. But adding my real name and address to a hate organization’s mailing list is sick behavior, and an outrageous abuse of the information about commenters you have asymmetrical access to.
    * at least that is how I took DM’s reference to “Lily white” institutions.

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  3. DrugMonkey Says:

    Come now Isabel. You know me better than that. I have added you to no mailing lists nor divulged any information about you to anyone.

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  4. Juniper Shoemaker Says:

    Here we go. “How DARE you talk about discrimination against blacks! Any mention of discrimination against blacks must NECESSSARILY be a dismissal of discrimination against others!” /logic fail Probably soon to be followed by “Of course your Asian labmates from racially homogenous countries don’t harbor any racism against blacks and Latinos! Just talking about it makes YOU a RACIST!”

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  5. Isabel Says:

    I thought I could trust you, but the only people who have my info are you, Physioprof, and Jill at IBTP who probably hasn’t given me a thought in many months. So what am I supposed to think? These recent on-line discussions (that have obviously riled a few people) are the only place the subject has come up.
    It sucks because I suspect it is not going to be easy to undo, and yes, it is super embarrassing and potentially harmful to my reputation and career. I have neighbors collecting my mail when I travel who I have to explain all this to – it was a really shitty thing to do whoever is responsible.

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  6. Isabel Says:

    I don’t know if you are talking to me Juniper, but I am all for discussion about discrimination against blacks. But saying “white anglo-saxons” and “lily white” people are still hogging all the slots and are over-represented and refuse to let anybody else in, that the situation is a matter of “white anglo majority” against black, as virtually everyone has been implying, is an outrageous lie. And implying this is a lot worse than just not mentioning that they are under-represented. I agree that it would be fine to discuss the most egregious examples of discrimination, mainly that against blacks, without dragging in other examples. But the implication is that the percentage of “anglos” isn’t changing, which is false.

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  7. Juniper Shoemaker Says:

    If whites, who are 80 percent of the population, only have 62 percent of full time students, and only 76 percent of the financial help, then the whites are facing discrimination.
    The 2010 US Census, to which Hermitage has linked, states that all American whites now comprise 72.4% of the US population. If you subtract non-Hispanic whites, then that figure drops to 63.7%. Either way, by your own metric, they’re not being discriminated against.
    I’d like to add that discrimination manifests itself in many ways, and that Hermitage didn’t deny discrimination against other groups of people. She just had the nerve to be angry, right? She just had the nerve to write about black people.
    Shit, I don’t even know what I think about this data yet. But this still pisses me off. I take home nothing from your comment except for, “Shut up, blacks! I have no sympathy for blacks talking about discrimination! I don’t believe that they face discrimination, which means that they don’t, and I don’t believe that reflects on me!”
    Which is, of course, your prerogative. And you have plenty of company, especially on SciBlogs.

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  8. Juniper Shoemaker Says:

    I don’t know if you are talking to me Juniper
    No, you stupid, worthless piece of racist, anti-Semitic shit, I wasn’t talking to you. The only reason why I can even see your dumb-ass ranting is because I’m being forced to use a different browser. I really don’t know why DM doesn’t just ban your racist ass.

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  9. Isabel Says:

    “No, you stupid, worthless piece of racist, anti-Semitic shit,”
    Okay the hell with you then, you pretentious crybaby. The gloves are off from now on. You have ZERO evidence that I am any of the above. ZERO. Maybe you are the nutjob that put my name on that list. I sincerely hope no one has been foolish (or devious) enough to put my info into the hands of someone as obviously hate-filled and unbalanced as you.
    And it’s beyond ironic the way you go on and on, day in and day out, about how people make assumptions about you without knowing the real you, and then you make the most crazy ass assumptions about me. Climb off already! After kill filing me and not reading anything I have written for years you just look like an idiot making the statements you are making.

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  10. DrugMonkey Says:

    Isabel, if I ever knew your real name I’ve forgotten* it. I doubt very much that PP is your culprit either, but I suppose he can speak to that himself. But given that I’ve seen you comment on plenty of blogs how do you know nobody else has bothered to stalk you? I don’t recall you leaving anything like a real name on my blog anyway…So it would have to be a rather motivated type.
    *no offense peeps but unless you leave your real email addy repeatedly, I tend to forget who you are. Hell, I have to think hard to remember WTF Isis, Zuska and bioE!’s real names are and two of them have their real names right on the blog!

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  11. Isabel Says:

    I don’t care about people’s names either and I agree that it seems a ridiculous thing to do to someone. And I admit I can’t imagine you or Physioprof caring enough to bother.
    But you are right; another blogger could have easily stalked me using my email address. That’s even creepier 😦

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  12. Juniper Shoemaker Says:

    Okay the hell with you then, you pretentious crybaby
    I’d much, much, MUCH rather be “pretentious” than semi-literate and possessed of your third-rate intellect. Sheesh. Every uneducated moron who has ever trolled the Intertubz calls someone who knows how to use standard English “pretentious”. That’s not even original. You can’t hurt me, Isabel. You can only annoy and disgust me like the worthless piece of shit you are.
    Besides, if I didn’t know how to use standard English, you and your ilk would be going on about how I sounded just like a typical nigger. Either way, I lose in Isabel-world.
    You have ZERO evidence that I am any of the above.
    Au contraire, my pot-smoking nemesis.
    Maybe you are the nutjob that put my name on that list.
    Let me state for the record and for your edification that I have no idea who the fuck you are in “real life”, nor do I care. I have never signed anyone up for a mailing list in my entire life, nor would I resort to such juvenile and stereotypical behavior. Your hateful, unbalanced strategy of accusing everyone who justifiably dislikes you of signing you up for some mailing list is both transparent and pitiful in motivation.

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  13. Isabel Says:

    “I’d much, much, MUCH rather be “pretentious” than semi-literate and possessed of your third-rate intellect. Sheesh. ”
    Well I *can’t stand* pretentious people, and for the record I …[okay just listed my scores and accomplishments but then deleted the whole paragraph because it seemed so, um, pretentious, LOL]… so I don’t know where you get “third rate intellect” or “semi-literate”. Compared to who? And you keep saying this- is it jealousy? As I have mentioned in the past I do have a few issues with typing and dyslexia-type communication problems so my posts may not be perfect because they are hurried, but I’d rather be honest than a pretentious prick who judges people based on spelling or grammar mistakes in blog comments.
    “Au contraire, my pot-smoking nemesis.”
    wtf? You have really gone off the deep end now, Juniper. Please *please* climb off, and find someone else to be obsessed with for imaginary reasons, because of some imagined slight on Isis’ blog years ago or whatever. I’m sure everyone else is as bored as I am with your obscene, incomprehensible, and pathetically cliched attacks.
    “accusing everyone who justifiably dislikes”
    Even without the kill file you refuse to read my posts. Who is being illiterate now? I did not even expand my accusation beyond the two co-bloggers who I believed were the only people who knew my identity and were familiar with the controversial topic until DM suggested it! From that you get accusing everyone who disagrees with me? It was DMs suggestion for crying out loud. So I guess you are accusing him of making hateful and unbalanced suggestions.
    This happened weeks ago and I never even mentioned it and wasn’t planning to. And I refuse to let it intimidate me. But DM just left a comment directed at me on CoR’s blog and in it he mentioned hate literature, which was a little suspicious.
    As far as accusing you, that was obviously not really serious, and it wasn’t because you are “disagreeing” with me, you are not making any sense at all in fact. It was because you are being so irrational, and appear to be obsessed with me.
    “such juvenile and stereotypical behavior”
    at last we agree about something.

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  14. Juniper Shoemaker Says:

    And you keep saying this- is it jealousy?

    Jealousy is the only reason why someone would repeat an argument. One would never repeat it because it is correct and one’s audience was too blockheaded to realize it. That’s a logical conclusion. You’re right! Such nonpareil ability to reason! Such coherence! Of course I’m jealous!
    Isabel. Do you have any idea who I am? I’m not jealous of your sorry ass. But, tell you what– I’ll promise to try really, really hard to be jealous of you, as an act of charity. The holiday season approacheth.

    I’m sure everyone else is as bored as I am with your obscene, incomprehensible, and pathetically cliched attacks.

    Yeah, which is why I’m friends with so many of them. “Everyone else” thinks you’re loony-tunes. The unoriginal, I-know-you-are-but-what-am-I middle-school style retort, which is all you’ve ever been able to muster in the face of my arguments, does not have the effect you intend for it to have, incidentally. You took my insults to you and feebly attempted to turn them on me. You couldn’t even generate your own.

    at last we agree about something.

    This is a one-liner from a thousand horrible Hollywood action-flicks and Sweet Valley High novels. It doesn’t have the effect you intend for it to have, either. I repeat, I did not sign you up for anything. Additionally, passive-aggression, as exemplified in Comment 11 as well as by your affected use of emoticons and text-speak, is your forte, not mine. When I detest someone, I tell her to her face, and I don’t resort to illegal or underhanded strategies.
    Did it ever occur to you that someone you know in real life or some blogger who’s nice to your face but who secretly despises you may be the real culprit? If you’re even telling the truth about someone signing you up for something–! Maybe you’re just playing the martyr again:

    Please *please* climb off, and find someone else to be obsessed with for imaginary reasons

    Martyr, martyr! Why don’t you go find a forum where you’re actually welcome?

    From that you get accusing everyone who disagrees with me

    First, you accuse DM and CPP with no proof. Then, I come along and insult you. Next, you accuse me with no proof. I surmised that, should anyone else happen upon this sorry-ass thread and insult you, you were not above immediately accusing him or her in the same wild-eyed, butthurt, colloquially random and unsubstantiated fashion.

    And it’s beyond ironic the way you go on and on, day in and day out, about how people make assumptions about you without knowing the real you

    Yes. This is an accurate characterization of the on-topic comments on multiple subjects that I’ve made on the blogs of my friends and that no one forced you to read. This is not a “privileged” dismissal of any of my discussions about the irrationality of racial bigotry and my inability as a biracial person to avoid its myriad and complex manifestations. “Day in and day out” is also an accurate characterization on the amount of time I spend blogging. Oh, yes. However, it’s your prerogative to lie, to belie all of your passionate insistence that you’re not a bigot, and to look like a fool.

    After kill filing me and not reading anything I have written for years

    In response to this charge, I present you with a statement you made and that I read in March 2011 (my killfile application didn’t work on Scientopia, remember):

    What did I say about chasing lower class white people (who haven’t renounced their past to the point that they don’t mind listening to upper class people tell redneck jokes and describe their relatives as pig-ignorant) to the conservative side? Here’s an example in action!

    To which I responded:

    Wait a minute. This is crazy. This statement is crazy for multiple reasons. Here are but a few reasons why this statement is crazy: 1) It implies that you are representative of all lower-class white people, which is patently untrue; 2) it implies that “lower-class white people” embrace “conservative” politics because they’re helpless victims, which is arguable at best and 3) it asserts that I can’t call your racist comments racist without being responsible for “chasing” a mass of people who aren’t you to “the conservative side”, which is just fucked up.

    Note that this is a direct response to the statement above. It’s a direct response to what you actually wrote. Nevertheless, you chose to respond this way:

    no, no, no just no. Maybe if you hadn’t killfiled me…

    Which, frankly, made you look so stupid I felt sorry for you.

    Even without the kill file you refuse to read my posts. Who is being illiterate now?

    It’s still you. First, I read all of the posts of yours to which I’ve responded. Second, I keep telling you that, just like every other blogger who uses killfile, I killfile people after I’ve read too many of their intolerable comments. Afterward, Isabel. Not before. In other words, I am not “making assumptions about you”. As I said on Hermitage’s blog, I am judging you based on what you’ve actually written. Just because you’re so monumentally conceited and dishonest you think that anyone’s negative judgment of you is the stuff of fabrication and is never due to errors or obscenities on your part doesn’t make it so.

    but I’d rather be honest

    Except, as I’ve mentioned before, you’re not honest. You’re demonstrably dishonest. You’re a liar. You say that indentured servitude of whites was worse than slavery of blacks, you say that you’re not racist against blacks just because you liked a black professor, you denounce Jews as “overrepresented” in academia, and then you pretend this isn’t the internet and you can successfully deny ever having written such noxious things.
    By the way, this:

    DuWanged,
    When you get into a top-10 school, TA there four semesters, and then pass your qualifying exams with flying colors, with five world-renowned scientists on your committee, talk to me about my mistaken ideas about science, okay? Until then STFU

    is pretty damned pretentious. By your own metric; let’s revisit Comment 13:

    [okay just listed my scores and accomplishments but then deleted the whole paragraph because it seemed so, um, pretentious, LOL]

    Plus, you seem to fervently believe that an argument’s strengths rely on who’s making it, not on it’s own merits. That makes as much logical sense as your continual assumptions that you can read everyone’s mind based on whether or not they comment on a given blog entry– as if there aren’t a million reasons why any given blogger might not comment on any given blog entry. You must be a shitty scientist as well as a shitty writer.
    Goodbye, Isabel. Your wish is my command! Thanks for playing.

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  15. DuWayne Says:

    Isabel, that you are either too stoned, or just plain too damned stupid to remember all the ugly little turds you have dropped all over the internets, doesn’t make them go away. You aren’t funny and you aren’t clever enough to convince many people that you are anything but an ugly little troll. I would suggest once again that you consult a therapist, you are more than a little unhinged.

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  16. Isabel Says:

    Go away duwayne ‘kay?
    “I would suggest once again that you consult a therapist, you are more than a little unhinged.”
    I’s obviously your girlfriend who is unhinged. But so sweet of you to take a stab at defending her.
    Again, just go away, the both of ya. Please!
    ps. Tell your bigoted brother I said hi:)

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  17. Isabel Says:

    “Goodbye, Isabel. Your wish is my command! ”
    Sorry to see you leave, Juniper. It’s been real;)
    🙂

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  18. Isabel Says:

    “You’re a liar. You say that indentured servitude of whites was worse than slavery of blacks, you say that you’re not racist against blacks just because you liked a black professor, you denounce Jews as “overrepresented” in academia, and then you pretend this isn’t the internet and you can successfully deny ever having written such noxious things.”
    for the uninitiated, I feel obliged to point out that this is a pack of lies. Black slavery was of course much, much worse over the long haul than white servitude; I never had a black professor; and I have never “denounced” Jews.

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  19. DuWayne Says:

    Go away duwayne ‘kay?
    No.
    for the uninitiated, I feel obliged to point out that this is a pack of lies. Black slavery was of course much, much worse over the long haul than white servitude; I never had a black professor; and I have never “denounced” Jews.
    You do realize that she posted links, do you not?
    Again, just go away, the both of ya. Please!
    Errr…You do realize, I hope, that though DM and I have had our arguments, he and I are on reasonably friendly terms, if not actually friends. Oh, and he is rather fond of my GF as well. You might want to consult him before you decide who should go away.

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  20. BikeMonkey Says:

    Black slavery was of course much, much worse over the long haul than white servitude
    Glad to hear you express your recognition of this simple fact at last, Isabel. Now can you acknowledge that the lasting impact of slavery/indenture that still haunts the US to this day is “much, much worse” for African-Americans than for Appalachian-Americans?

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  21. DrugMonkey Says:

    I am not overfond of the notion that anyone has to “go away” from the comment threads on my blog. We have been very fortunate over the years to have discussions that may be uncomfortable at times but rarely descend into unproductive (and I realize I see productivity where many do not) discourse. I’ve had to delete or edit a few comments here and there but it has been a rare event.
    Let us all try to recognize when we’ve made our point and when we are continuing to bash away fruitlessly at the proverbial immovable object. Also, try to recognize when you have let the dumbass (from your respective positions, of course) fuck with you.

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  22. Isabel Says:

    “You do realize that she posted links, do you not?”
    Yup and pulled statements out of context like crazy. I never had a black professor and *definitely* never said “I am not racist” for ANY reason. I never “denounced” Jews for ANY reason. And I NEVER stated white servitude was worse overall and that black slavery, or that racism doesn’t exist. One thing that is for sure is that I have a new perspective on all the whining she does about the “racist” things people do to her. She’s been crying for three years because I supposedly said something to her based on my supposed perception of her as from a half-black family, who I supposedly assumed was liberal, being black, and therefore did not know about white slavery. This horrible “racist” event never even happened. She’s a nut.
    So how do you feel about your brother mocking that poor kid who was confused about his sexuality, including a link to the teens picture, just because he was from West Virginia? I hope you gave him hell for that.
    I stand by everything I have posted, while there were surely some minor mistakes.
    “Glad to hear you express your recognition of this simple fact at last, Isabel.”
    Never said otherwise. And ZI have corrected the false accusation about a dozen times. Where have you been?
    “Now can you acknowledge that the lasting impact of slavery/indenture that still haunts the US to this day is “much, much worse” for African-Americans than for Appalachian-Americans?”
    Wait, it this the Opression Olymipics I’ve been warned about?
    Go to hell, racist. I care about everyone. Yup, even white people, which is what you and Juniper cannot tolerate.
    “Let us all try to recognize when we’ve made our point and when we are continuing to bash away fruitlessly at the proverbial immovable object.”
    Let us all recognize when we are being abusive assholes (really DM, you think it’s totally appropriate to scream at people about things they allegedly said years ago, calling them pieces of shit over and over on your blog? This is not a fruitful discussion by any stretch of the imagination. She is also attacking me everywhere and trying to drive me off every blog, to hell with her.
    That was totally bizarre, off-topic (to the extreme), a relentless, over-the-top personal attack. A horrific derail, but I hear you are “rather fond” of the unhinged attacker so apparently anything goes. yes I know Juniper is a special pet around here. But she’s still an asshole and as I said the gloves are off now. Really, one of you, if you really care about her, should have taken her aside and tried to talk some sense into her.

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  23. Isabel Says:

    And you Dm, are being disingenuous as usual. According to you and others discussing this study who you have linked to, we can bash “anglo-saxons” for hogging all the science faculty jobs, even though they are no longer doing so. Why is this okay, or fruitful? But the main reason we cannot even mention that this is not even true is because of your ethnic group, which is a 2% minority group that is considered white but not usually considered “majority”, and which is something like 1500% over-represented in science, but does not allow discussion of itself by those not part of the group.
    When did Jews become “lily white” and even “anglo-saxon”? When 30% of science professors are Jews, and counted as white, this is not insignificant, and bashing the “white” (read Gentile) majority is surely disingenuous.
    I never “denounced” Jews, but I did criticize them as a group for this attitude of secrecy and fear of oppression which no longer makes sense, at least in the US. I said Jews as a group needed to lighten up and let others criticize them and mock them. I still say this would be healthy.
    It is ludicrous that we are hashing out the numbers for other ethnic groups, and the most amazing transformation from pie chart one (population) and pie chart two (representation in science) is considered off-limits for discussion. Get over it already Drugmonkey.

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  24. DuWayne Says:

    Isabel, I really don’t like you and have tried many times to talk sense into you. See a fucking therapist, quit smoking so much pot – unless you aren’t actually forgetting things you have said, in which case just quit lying.
    And while I have no idea what the hell you are talking about about my brother, I have jumped on his shit more than once for bullshit. What makes it easier to do with him, is that he is rational and capable of rational conversations – even when they’re uncomfortable.
    Finally, take another look at your second to last para. Are you really that bloody dense, or are you just “joking” around again?

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  25. Isabel Says:

    Duwayne, you are the one being dense here, and my comment wasn’t addressed to you. It was addressed to DM, particularly in regards to his portrayal of some immovable, lily white majority in the sciences. Obviously you agree with DM’s assessment of the situation; and, that all references to Jewish-Americans are anti-semitic. This is the problem.
    Well, whatever. I have no interest in communicating with obsessed people like you and Juniper. You keep wanting to go over the same thing, tell the same twisted versions of events in the distant past, over and over again. Also, you are both verbally abusive; listen to yourselves sometime. As DM points out, I need to recognize that it is pointless to argue with you.

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  26. Isabel Says:

    And look, I don’t want to open a can of worms here, and I have absolutely nothing against any group, or care about Jewish (or Asian) representation in science. But I don’t see how it is fair or fruitful in any way to unfairly blame one group for something they are simply not responsible for. Phrases like “the white majority” or “lily white” or “the anglo-saxon majority” usually refer to non-Jewish whites. Why make this distinction??
    And why go from there to imply immovability, when the numbers (and representation) of non-Jewish whites have actually shrunk quite dramatically in recent decades, to a fraction of their former size? In the future it would be better to just avoid these kinds of comments if you don’t support breaking up the white majority in the analyses (because of fears of anti-semitism or whatever).

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  27. DrugMonkey Says:

    Why should anyone need to mock Jewish folks, Isabel? Aren’t they kinda notorious for taking care of that themselves?
    But any rate, when did anyone say that any reference to Jewish representation in science was inherently anti-Semitic? I can’t quite recall that…..
    What’s all this pie chart transformation stuff? It sounds like you might have something interesting to say.

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  28. CD0 Says:

    Isabel: Yes, we can track everybody’s racial purity for as many generations as you want and subdivide ethnicities that are relatively culturally uniform into multiple subgroups. That was done a lot in the thirties but that’s not the point. The point here is not puerely race, but social disparity associated with certain ethnic groups. A gap of opportunity between a kid born in an inner city ghetto and a fraternity boy who is the son of a major oil executive in Texas and can become a disastrous President, for instance. A gap of opportunity for somebody who struggles to overcome an environment where nobody has ever gone to College and is still later presupposed to be a looser because “sure, affirmative action made it easy for him”.
    All American Jewish that I know who are working in Science are for the most part culturally indistinguishable from other white fellows. And all, let’s say, Argentinean-born Jewish that I know working in Science are culturally indistinguishable from other main stream Argentineans. Perhaps they work harder or something, but all the time I keep finding by chance that this or that colleague are Jewish without having ever thought about it.
    In any case, with the exception of Obama (still a relative of Cheney), there has never been a President who was not one of these white Anglo-Saxons that in your view appear to be discriminated and underrepresented. It’s not that there is not room for debate…

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  29. Isabel Says:

    Wait, now we’re talking about presidents? Anyway are you aware of how much power Jews have in Washington? Maybe they don’t need the presidency, lol. Anyway the point was not to object to discrimination against anglos, but to point out that it is inaccurate to blame them. I am reacting to this blame, not to the original study. And btw Jews are not indistinguishable from other whites, at least in the US.
    ps. Funny how Jews get away with excuses that would never be allowed for whites in general. Yeah, they’re not lazy and shiftless like the rest of us. That probably helps some I’m sure!
    “Why should anyone need to mock Jewish folks, Isabel? Aren’t they kinda notorious for taking care of that themselves?”
    self-mockery doesn’t count. Powerful groups shouldn’t be above scrutiny or criticism by other groups, especially less powerful ones. I am not saying bring back ugly stereotypes- we should be retiring those for all groups.
    “But any rate, when did anyone say that any reference to Jewish representation in science was inherently anti-Semitic? I can’t quite recall that…..”
    I was called an anti-semitic by you I think over at CoR’s blog!
    “What’s all this pie chart transformation stuff? It sounds like you might have something interesting to say.”
    I am saying that if you looked at representation of ethnic groups in science, for example faculty and grad students in biosciences, you could make two pie charts, one showing representation in the US, the other representation in science. If you distinguish Jews, the first pie chart would appear pretty much as we have been seeing, with a 2% sliver now a different color, and the anglo white majority down to 70% from 72%.
    But the second pie chart would look radically different. The Jewish slice would now be at 30% (or perhaps higher for biomed) and especially if you included grad students the asian would now be quite large also, and the anglo slice would have shrunk considerably, and at a glance look similar in size to these other two. Similarly, if you looked at the distribution in sciences over time, say 1920’s or 1950s compared to the present, you would get a similar dramatic change in distribution. Rather than a pretty much unchanging big chunk of “white people”, which we keep seeing in the analyses now. I don’t think my suggested way of illustrating the statistics would elicit the same responses of “those anglos refuse to share, to accept diversity blah blah..” that we are seeing around the blogosphere.
    Hope that is clear, gotta run.

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  30. Loonabel, why do you derail every fucken discussion about racial discrimination in the Unites States into a discussion of jews?

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  31. DrugMonkey Says:

    So I’m unclear here, Isabel. Are you suggesting that the data which identify disparity of outcome for African-American PIs in the NIH extramural pool is the fault of Jewish individuals being overrepresented in academia?
    Or are you suggesting that nonJewish white PIs are also covertly discriminated against at the hands of these overrepresented Jewish scientists?
    Or merely suggesting that you’d really, really like to see the NIH data broken down by Jewish identifying whites and nonJewish identifying whites? What’s your prediction on that? I bet it would identify no difference in outcome either way.

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  32. Isabel Says:

    “So I’m unclear here, Isabel. Are you suggesting that the data which identify disparity of outcome for African-American PIs in the NIH extramural pool is the fault of Jewish individuals being overrepresented in academia?”
    I am absolutely not in any way suggesting it is anyone’s “fault”. My goal is to show that there is no evidence that it is the fault of greedy, immovable, diversity-hating “anglo saxons”, as many have been implying; and that in fact the evidence clearly suggests otherwise. The “anglo/white majority” has shrunk to a minority, and there is a lot more diversity than in the past, and more diversity relative to the general population.
    “would identify no difference in outcome either way”
    In terms of outcome for black applicants, there may be no difference, if that is what you mean. That is irrelevant to my point. Others may disagree of course.
    What do you think? 🙂

    Like

  33. Isabel Says:

    CPP, you sound a little paranoid. I didn’t even join the discussion until it had devolved into a lot of hand wringing over those xenophobic, selfish lily white anglos. Uncomfortable having your own ethnic group in the spotlight for a change, eh? Sounds like you can dish it out but you can’t take it. So, is there a reason we should automatically assume that there is no bias and that there is “nothing to see here but some hard working people who aren’t slackers like the rest of Americans”? How do *you* explain the astounding over-representation? I’d be curious to hear your own interpretation. Is it innate superiority, like everyone says? You don’t sound especially hardworking to me, lol.
    Anyway, it is always more fun discussing a taboo subject. How can I resist?:)

    Like


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