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	<title>Comments on: A Modest Proposal on Authorship</title>
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	<link>http://drugmonkey.wordpress.com/2007/07/30/a-modest-proposal-on-authorship/</link>
	<description>biomedical research, just another job...</description>
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		<title>By: &#8220;It is time to help the pendulum of power swing back to favour the person who actually works at the bench and tries to discover things.&#8221; &#171; DrugMonkey</title>
		<link>http://drugmonkey.wordpress.com/2007/07/30/a-modest-proposal-on-authorship/#comment-427</link>
		<dc:creator>&#8220;It is time to help the pendulum of power swing back to favour the person who actually works at the bench and tries to discover things.&#8221; &#171; DrugMonkey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Aug 2007 19:50:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://drugmonkey.wordpress.com/2007/07/30/a-modest-proposal-on-authorship/#comment-427</guid>
		<description>[...] get into discussions about this problem from time to time. Although I&#8217;ve perhaps touched on the issues in blog posts once or twice, I&#8217;ve never done the full critique. And now I [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] get into discussions about this problem from time to time. Although I&#8217;ve perhaps touched on the issues in blog posts once or twice, I&#8217;ve never done the full critique. And now I [...]</p>
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		<title>By: nosugrefneb</title>
		<link>http://drugmonkey.wordpress.com/2007/07/30/a-modest-proposal-on-authorship/#comment-278</link>
		<dc:creator>nosugrefneb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Aug 2007 17:08:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://drugmonkey.wordpress.com/2007/07/30/a-modest-proposal-on-authorship/#comment-278</guid>
		<description>Who&#039;s on top?
Who&#039;s in proper reading orientation?
:)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Who&#8217;s on top?<br />
Who&#8217;s in proper reading orientation?<br />
 <img src='http://s.wordpress.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: RB</title>
		<link>http://drugmonkey.wordpress.com/2007/07/30/a-modest-proposal-on-authorship/#comment-277</link>
		<dc:creator>RB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Aug 2007 17:02:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://drugmonkey.wordpress.com/2007/07/30/a-modest-proposal-on-authorship/#comment-277</guid>
		<description>I think the author list should be presented in a circle.  No start, no end, no first, no last.  Problem solved.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the author list should be presented in a circle.  No start, no end, no first, no last.  Problem solved.</p>
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		<title>By: drugmonkey</title>
		<link>http://drugmonkey.wordpress.com/2007/07/30/a-modest-proposal-on-authorship/#comment-246</link>
		<dc:creator>drugmonkey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2007 00:05:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://drugmonkey.wordpress.com/2007/07/30/a-modest-proposal-on-authorship/#comment-246</guid>
		<description>It is a fair enough point although given the very high hurdle for the nuclear option I wonder whether your fears would actually be realized. Even with accusations of research &lt;i&gt;fraud&lt;/i&gt; the more-junior person seems to always pay the steeper price.

Upon reflection I think I may be tilting a little bit towards proposing a system to get unjustifiably whining postdocs to just shut up and realize what time it is. To realize that &quot;work&quot; does not always equal &quot;contribution&quot; and that sometimes one gets screwed. Because after all the above proposal is simply what the &quot;good&quot; PI should be doing anyway in guiding the author list process. But extend me a little optimism. Even the &quot;bad&quot; PI who is willing to shuffle authors based on liking, who needs to defend, who is on the job market, who is currently crying in the office and other such factors maybe convinced (or at least shamed) by peer review making it clear that the intended author order is not scientifically justified. It needn&#039;t always be a nuclear confrontation with the PI.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is a fair enough point although given the very high hurdle for the nuclear option I wonder whether your fears would actually be realized. Even with accusations of research <i>fraud</i> the more-junior person seems to always pay the steeper price.</p>
<p>Upon reflection I think I may be tilting a little bit towards proposing a system to get unjustifiably whining postdocs to just shut up and realize what time it is. To realize that &#8220;work&#8221; does not always equal &#8220;contribution&#8221; and that sometimes one gets screwed. Because after all the above proposal is simply what the &#8220;good&#8221; PI should be doing anyway in guiding the author list process. But extend me a little optimism. Even the &#8220;bad&#8221; PI who is willing to shuffle authors based on liking, who needs to defend, who is on the job market, who is currently crying in the office and other such factors maybe convinced (or at least shamed) by peer review making it clear that the intended author order is not scientifically justified. It needn&#8217;t always be a nuclear confrontation with the PI.</p>
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		<title>By: PhysioProf</title>
		<link>http://drugmonkey.wordpress.com/2007/07/30/a-modest-proposal-on-authorship/#comment-245</link>
		<dc:creator>PhysioProf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jul 2007 23:03:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://drugmonkey.wordpress.com/2007/07/30/a-modest-proposal-on-authorship/#comment-245</guid>
		<description>I have seen them, but never participated in them. The problem with your suggestion is that it creates *more* opportunity for argument among authors, by creating another authority with some say in authorship order. This will inevitably tempt some authors to behave like a little kid whose mother won&#039;t let him do something so he goes to ask his father.

The benefit of the current system is that the corresponding author has effectively dictatorial power over authorship. The checks on this power are (1) the need to maintain some level of morale in the laboratory and among collaborators, (2) the reputation of the corresponding author, and (3) the threat of the &quot;nuclear option&quot;--an author pursuing institutional (or other external) oversight of the situation.

While this system definitely leads to disgruntled authors, it almost never leads to the nuclear option. Decentralizing the authority to determine authorship would, in my opinion, substantially increase the frequency of disgruntled authors going nuclear.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have seen them, but never participated in them. The problem with your suggestion is that it creates *more* opportunity for argument among authors, by creating another authority with some say in authorship order. This will inevitably tempt some authors to behave like a little kid whose mother won&#8217;t let him do something so he goes to ask his father.</p>
<p>The benefit of the current system is that the corresponding author has effectively dictatorial power over authorship. The checks on this power are (1) the need to maintain some level of morale in the laboratory and among collaborators, (2) the reputation of the corresponding author, and (3) the threat of the &#8220;nuclear option&#8221;&#8211;an author pursuing institutional (or other external) oversight of the situation.</p>
<p>While this system definitely leads to disgruntled authors, it almost never leads to the nuclear option. Decentralizing the authority to determine authorship would, in my opinion, substantially increase the frequency of disgruntled authors going nuclear.</p>
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		<title>By: drugmonkey</title>
		<link>http://drugmonkey.wordpress.com/2007/07/30/a-modest-proposal-on-authorship/#comment-244</link>
		<dc:creator>drugmonkey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jul 2007 21:33:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://drugmonkey.wordpress.com/2007/07/30/a-modest-proposal-on-authorship/#comment-244</guid>
		<description>I think what I was trying to get at was less of a rigidly deterministic system and more of an external comment/review of author order. After all, many papers get published with the authors&#039; version of responses to review rather than a point by point acceptance of all criticisms. The Editor, of course, serving as ultimate arbiter, but only of what the PI or corresponding author is willing to present, he or she can always take it elsewhere.

I don&#039;t know how much you&#039;ve been around painful authorship fights (?). It isn&#039;t pretty. I thank my lucky stars that this is not a typical feature of my area of research. I am quite familiar with situations in which painful fights occur with just about every freakin&#039; paper.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think what I was trying to get at was less of a rigidly deterministic system and more of an external comment/review of author order. After all, many papers get published with the authors&#8217; version of responses to review rather than a point by point acceptance of all criticisms. The Editor, of course, serving as ultimate arbiter, but only of what the PI or corresponding author is willing to present, he or she can always take it elsewhere.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know how much you&#8217;ve been around painful authorship fights (?). It isn&#8217;t pretty. I thank my lucky stars that this is not a typical feature of my area of research. I am quite familiar with situations in which painful fights occur with just about every freakin&#8217; paper.</p>
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		<title>By: PhysioProf</title>
		<link>http://drugmonkey.wordpress.com/2007/07/30/a-modest-proposal-on-authorship/#comment-243</link>
		<dc:creator>PhysioProf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jul 2007 21:03:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://drugmonkey.wordpress.com/2007/07/30/a-modest-proposal-on-authorship/#comment-243</guid>
		<description>&quot;Why not let the reviewers decide importance of particular aspects of the manuscript and therefore the authorship order?&quot;

While I agree with you that this would be better than the cockamamie idiocy that Nature came up with, it is still much, much worse than the current system, which is that the corresponding author has the final say.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Why not let the reviewers decide importance of particular aspects of the manuscript and therefore the authorship order?&#8221;</p>
<p>While I agree with you that this would be better than the cockamamie idiocy that Nature came up with, it is still much, much worse than the current system, which is that the corresponding author has the final say.</p>
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		<title>By: nosugrefneb</title>
		<link>http://drugmonkey.wordpress.com/2007/07/30/a-modest-proposal-on-authorship/#comment-236</link>
		<dc:creator>nosugrefneb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jul 2007 17:17:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://drugmonkey.wordpress.com/2007/07/30/a-modest-proposal-on-authorship/#comment-236</guid>
		<description>Agreed, the formula thing is a little ridiculous.

Still, while yours is certainly a good idea, I&#039;m still with writedit on this one: Adults should, in a perfect world, be able to figure this out themselves.

Perhaps they should hug it out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agreed, the formula thing is a little ridiculous.</p>
<p>Still, while yours is certainly a good idea, I&#8217;m still with writedit on this one: Adults should, in a perfect world, be able to figure this out themselves.</p>
<p>Perhaps they should hug it out.</p>
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		<title>By: drugmonkey</title>
		<link>http://drugmonkey.wordpress.com/2007/07/30/a-modest-proposal-on-authorship/#comment-234</link>
		<dc:creator>drugmonkey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jul 2007 15:23:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://drugmonkey.wordpress.com/2007/07/30/a-modest-proposal-on-authorship/#comment-234</guid>
		<description>It wouldn&#039;t have to get down to the minutia of who is 6th and 7th author on a 10 author list. My proposal is not to have the reviewers and editor assign authorship but rather to assign the priority for what on-paper aspects of the manuscript are most important. The authors themselves would have to determine who did what but this way the peer review process would provide clear guidance on what aspects are most important. 

For example, it may be the case that the first publication of a knockout or transgenic animal (even in this day and age!) is so important that it carries the day. Alternately, the animal may have been published, or is a me-too and therefore exploration of a novel phenotype is most important. You could also envision scenarios where the follow up (say in vitro expression, rescue, recapitulation, etc) experiments really make the paper important (&quot;demonstrates mechanism&quot;). 

It wouldn&#039;t solve everything, of course, but it is better than that absurd proposal in NatureJobs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It wouldn&#8217;t have to get down to the minutia of who is 6th and 7th author on a 10 author list. My proposal is not to have the reviewers and editor assign authorship but rather to assign the priority for what on-paper aspects of the manuscript are most important. The authors themselves would have to determine who did what but this way the peer review process would provide clear guidance on what aspects are most important. </p>
<p>For example, it may be the case that the first publication of a knockout or transgenic animal (even in this day and age!) is so important that it carries the day. Alternately, the animal may have been published, or is a me-too and therefore exploration of a novel phenotype is most important. You could also envision scenarios where the follow up (say in vitro expression, rescue, recapitulation, etc) experiments really make the paper important (&#8220;demonstrates mechanism&#8221;). </p>
<p>It wouldn&#8217;t solve everything, of course, but it is better than that absurd proposal in NatureJobs.</p>
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		<title>By: nosugrefneb</title>
		<link>http://drugmonkey.wordpress.com/2007/07/30/a-modest-proposal-on-authorship/#comment-232</link>
		<dc:creator>nosugrefneb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jul 2007 12:23:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://drugmonkey.wordpress.com/2007/07/30/a-modest-proposal-on-authorship/#comment-232</guid>
		<description>How can the reviewers possibly be privy to all the behind-the-scenes contributions of those involved? They aren&#039;t aware of the experimental planning process, the analysis, discussion with PIs, guidance over technicians and students, etc. It seems like the number of technicians with first-author papers would skyrocket based solely on contributions to data collection!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How can the reviewers possibly be privy to all the behind-the-scenes contributions of those involved? They aren&#8217;t aware of the experimental planning process, the analysis, discussion with PIs, guidance over technicians and students, etc. It seems like the number of technicians with first-author papers would skyrocket based solely on contributions to data collection!</p>
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