Comments on: Should we bother trainees with the facts of life? http://drugmonkey.wordpress.com/2007/07/03/should-we-bother-trainees-with-the-facts-of-life/ biomedical research, just another job... Fri, 18 Dec 2009 07:20:54 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: bdf http://drugmonkey.wordpress.com/2007/07/03/should-we-bother-trainees-with-the-facts-of-life/#comment-109 bdf Wed, 04 Jul 2007 04:16:42 +0000 http://drugmonkey.wordpress.com/2007/07/03/should-we-bother-trainees-with-the-facts-of-life/#comment-109 I'm all for putting it all out there. Sugarcoating things only prolongs the inevitable, which is the harsh realization that being an exciting, renegade scientist 100% of the time isn't what most graduate students are going to become. So, thanks for bringing this up. I'm with you. Personally, my PI is pretty open about all aspects of his projects, much like Thomas' situation I imagine, which has been a great learning experience for getting to know about the "behind the scenes" sort of stuff early in one's career. I’m all for putting it all out there. Sugarcoating things only prolongs the inevitable, which is the harsh realization that being an exciting, renegade scientist 100% of the time isn’t what most graduate students are going to become. So, thanks for bringing this up. I’m with you. Personally, my PI is pretty open about all aspects of his projects, much like Thomas’ situation I imagine, which has been a great learning experience for getting to know about the “behind the scenes” sort of stuff early in one’s career.

]]> By: drugmonkey http://drugmonkey.wordpress.com/2007/07/03/should-we-bother-trainees-with-the-facts-of-life/#comment-108 drugmonkey Tue, 03 Jul 2007 22:00:25 +0000 http://drugmonkey.wordpress.com/2007/07/03/should-we-bother-trainees-with-the-facts-of-life/#comment-108 Dangit Thomas. Now I really need to work on the "real answer" to the questions posed by a trainee I mention above. It is also my answer to your leaning. The short version is this. It is (most likely) a long, long way between now and PI-dom for you. Do not assume that you are going to be the same person then that you are now. Do not assume that your motivations in science are static. Finally, it is the lower probability that you will end up as a clone of your current PI- the way s/he does it is not the only way to have a career as an independent scientist. Dangit Thomas. Now I really need to work on the “real answer” to the questions posed by a trainee I mention above. It is also my answer to your leaning.

The short version is this. It is (most likely) a long, long way between now and PI-dom for you. Do not assume that you are going to be the same person then that you are now. Do not assume that your motivations in science are static. Finally, it is the lower probability that you will end up as a clone of your current PI- the way s/he does it is not the only way to have a career as an independent scientist.

]]> By: Thomas Robey http://drugmonkey.wordpress.com/2007/07/03/should-we-bother-trainees-with-the-facts-of-life/#comment-107 Thomas Robey Tue, 03 Jul 2007 20:32:25 +0000 http://drugmonkey.wordpress.com/2007/07/03/should-we-bother-trainees-with-the-facts-of-life/#comment-107 My advisor has also exposed my graduate student colleagues and me to the grant writing process, asking us to contribute ideas, data and text to his submissions. This is part of his mentoring, and generally, we do not feel exploited. The difference in mentoring between grad students and post-docs is basically who is in the drivers' seat. (He is with us, and the post-docs are for 'their' grants.) You are probably familiar with Bruno Latour's social constructivist theories of science. His take (in his early writing: Lab Life was an anthropological study of a lab at the Salk Institute) is a useful perspective for young scientists and non-scientists alike to think about what science is as a profession. The philosophical conclusions he makes are more of a stretch for me. Like whimple said, "If [grantsmanship] doesn’t appeal to the trainees it’s in their best interests to find out now, rather than 5 years into their post-doc." As for me, I am leaning toward the, "I don’t think I want to continue with science if this is it" position, because as much as I like hatching ideas and other intellectual activities, to maintain my sanity, I need considerable time to work with my hands and see effects. My advisor has also exposed my graduate student colleagues and me to the grant writing process, asking us to contribute ideas, data and text to his submissions. This is part of his mentoring, and generally, we do not feel exploited. The difference in mentoring between grad students and post-docs is basically who is in the drivers’ seat. (He is with us, and the post-docs are for ‘their’ grants.)

You are probably familiar with Bruno Latour’s social constructivist theories of science. His take (in his early writing: Lab Life was an anthropological study of a lab at the Salk Institute) is a useful perspective for young scientists and non-scientists alike to think about what science is as a profession. The philosophical conclusions he makes are more of a stretch for me.

Like whimple said, “If [grantsmanship] doesn’t appeal to the trainees it’s in their best interests to find out now, rather than 5 years into their post-doc.” As for me, I am leaning toward the, “I don’t think I want to continue with science if this is it” position, because as much as I like hatching ideas and other intellectual activities, to maintain my sanity, I need considerable time to work with my hands and see effects.

]]> By: whimple http://drugmonkey.wordpress.com/2007/07/03/should-we-bother-trainees-with-the-facts-of-life/#comment-106 whimple Tue, 03 Jul 2007 19:03:53 +0000 http://drugmonkey.wordpress.com/2007/07/03/should-we-bother-trainees-with-the-facts-of-life/#comment-106 Grant writing, grant tactics, schmoozing and other career issues IS the actual science, just as much as doing the experiments. My philosophy is to let it all hang out, warts and all. When my grants get triaged, my students get to read the pink sheets (and we're talking some hostile pink sheets). I think it's educational, although others might disagree. If this stuff doesn't appeal to the trainees it's in their best interests to find out now, rather than 5 years into their post-doc. Still, it "breaks the fourth wall" between PIs and students, which some are reluctant to do. Grant writing, grant tactics, schmoozing and other career issues IS the actual science, just as much as doing the experiments. My philosophy is to let it all hang out, warts and all. When my grants get triaged, my students get to read the pink sheets (and we’re talking some hostile pink sheets). I think it’s educational, although others might disagree. If this stuff doesn’t appeal to the trainees it’s in their best interests to find out now, rather than 5 years into their post-doc. Still, it “breaks the fourth wall” between PIs and students, which some are reluctant to do.

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